They are not punished, those who repent obtain the forgiveness of God and enter the rank of souls who contemplate him, but those who do not repent and cannot therefore be forgiven disappear. There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.His Holiness was answering the question: "You have never spoken to me about the souls who died in sin and will go to hell to suffer it for eternity. You have however spoken to me of good souls, admitted to the contemplation of God. But what about bad souls? Where are they punished?"
March 29, 2018
The biggest news ever: There is no Hell.
Pope Francis says:
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192 comments:
Yes there is. Why is this being shared, the Vatican has come one in regards to this 'reconstruction' of a conversation.
There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.
Apparently the Pope isn't Catholic.
Boredom or extinction. Pick one. No mulligans.
Where do they disappear to. That is the question.
I guess the weird reinvention of the Catholic Church continues apace.
Nothing or the contemplation of God...
As Henry says: Pick one.
It doesn't seem like a clear enough choice.
The weekend is coming up, and you may have some free time. What will you do with it? Show of hands: Who's thinking, contemplation?
sigh...
I started to respond with a post expressing my utter astonishment. That's orthodox Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, and, while they're very active in South America, I didn't think they'd converted the pope. But then I actually read the article and it already has a clarifying footnote added that the statement is a paraphrase by a source who reportedly heard Pope Francis say something. Pft, "fake news".
So bears don't shit in the woods.
This Pope is not Catholic.
There is also a way station: Hell.
"I'm on the highway to nowhere" doesn't have the same grit as the original AC/DC version.
What about all those women who didn't support Hillary ? Where did they go ?
Where do they disappear to. That is the question.
My best guess is the cornfield.
How in Hell does he know?
This isn't the reinvention of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church's dogma is not changed by this guy's opinion, man.
Making atheism popular.
"Where do they disappear to. That is the question."
The more challenging question is: What are the conditions like for those condemned/rewarded with an eternity of contemplation? It's like the childhood punishment of being sent to your room to think. Is there anything else to do? Am I at all like my earthly self as I endure this future of unending contemplation? I mean, that sounds like it could be the new liberal version of hell. Give that to the bad people. But something better ought to be given to the favored souls, or will you be transformed into celestial beings designed for contemplation, in which case will you be you at all? I know one answer is we're not actually us right now, but later we will be, if we're good enough. I know, I know, who am I to question God's plan, and whatever it is, it must be great, because He's the greatest, and we're stuck with whatever it is, so it's too horrible to imagine anything other than something quite great. Which is why there's no Hell anymore, in the Pope's estimation, but my problem is the Pope's Heaven seems wanting, but I know the Pope would say something else if his description didn't seem great to him, and I'm guessing he's a contemplative man.
This Pope is the Anti-pope who was illegally installed while the True Pope still lives.
Shadowy forces put in this ultra liberal poseur who is undermining if not destroying the Church. What he has done in China is particularly reprehensible and can not be condemned enough by all true Catholics.
The Church will survive. It always does. True Catholics need to follow the example of St Benedict and ignore everything this usurper has to say.
He in fact is doing the Devil's work.
Hey now..AC/DC wouldn't lie..
If I hadn't left the Catholic Church years ago, this pope would've done it for me.
He's quite the piece of work.
And the bears are no longer shitting in the woods.
Pope Francis is in fact the favorite Pope of Atheists and those who hate the Church.
The Kim Philby of the Catholic Church working in the service of our foes.
The church survived worse Popes. At least he is not as corrupt as the Europeans. There may be a Vatican left after he disappears.
The Spanish Inquisition is not happy
What about Limbo and Purgatory ?
John Tuffnell wrote...
"I'm on the highway to nowhere" doesn't have the same grit as the original AC/DC version.
We're on the road to nowhere.
It's a Talking Heads world now.
Tread carefully..he might punch you in the nose..
From the official Cathechism of the Catholic Church
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
The Pope, whatever he means, cannot change this dogma.
By the way, Hell as a state of existence for people who reject God's love and die in that rejection is necessary in Christianity since orthodox Christians believe in free will. Loving God is done out of freedom, not compulsion. Thus, there has to be a choice available.
Nothing ever happens in Heaven.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYJWq9Jtf94
Talking Heads
He is not personally corrupt that is true.
He is morally bankrupt.
He betrayed the Catholic bishops of China and the priests who spread the Word of God at risk of their lives to placate the Chinese Communists to give them control of the Church.
He is an abomination.
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky...
Vatican has already denied that he was quoted correctly. Story updated.
Charity for Augustine was thinking the best of others instead of the worst.
That's how it came to be soul-saving.
Anyhow, he's pope. Can't he say whatever he wants and it becomes Church doctrine?
"What about Limbo and Purgatory ?"
That was my thought. But I'm not Catholic.
BTW, what is the Catholic position on those who never had a chance to hear the Gospel?
There must be billions of them in Asia and Africa. Or believe in another religion? What happens to them?
Where's lucifer, the angel with the best lines.
Not surprising. You have to go to Africa to get true Christian teaching, orthodoxy unyielding to the modern world. Those pesky Africans actually believed the missionaries. This Pope is just a lap behind the Anglicans.
Thurber, in some letters book I can't remember enough to locate, says what's wrong with death being like a train entering a tunnel, stopping, turns off the lights, and then nothing.
You spent a lot of time (13+ billion years) not being anywhere already and it wasn't bad.
The universe can't be infinitely old, by the way, or we wouldn't have gotten to now yet. Not enough time has passed.
The Pope’s an annihilationist. I too am an annihilationist. The Bible really doesn’t even mention “Hell” per se. it talks about the Lake of Fire, Hades (oft mistranslated as “Hell”), Outer Darkness, Sheol, Gehenna and a few other nasty places but Hell is a Norse concept and in fact is the name of the Norse queen of the Underworld ...Hel is her name.
John 3:16, Evangelical Cjristianitu’s favorite verse, says the there are one of two outcomes for the unbeliever: perishing vs. eternal life. No Hell mentioned.
So for once I agree with this pope.
The body particularizes you. No body, you're back at being laws of physics.
Eddington argued that the universe is made of mind-stuff. Much of it rigorously off-limits to measurement. That's what shrinking meter sticks and bent space works to do. Makes certain measurements off limits.
"I detest my sins because I fear the loss of heaven and the pains of hell." - the Act of Contrition, a Catholic prayer.
"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,born of the Virgin Mary,suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died and was buried;He descended into hell;on the third day He rose again from the dead;..." - The Apostles Creed
Plus, the catechism already quoted in a previous comment.
This Pope is an embarrassment.
"says what's wrong with death being like a train entering a tunnel, stopping, turns off the lights, and then nothing."
Its not like its our choice is it?
To sleep, perchance to Dream; aye, there's the rub, for in that sleep of death, what dreams may come, when we have shuffled off this mortal coil, must give us pause.
What fresh Hell is this ?
The worst part of the first 13.7 billion years was school.
So if "Hell is other people" and there is no Hell, then no one else exists!!
My King James Bible reads: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22 The Catholic version reads: Just as all die in Adam, so in Christ all will be brought to life.
My understanding of the world "all" must differ from the Pontiff's. I believe that Paul was teaching that because of Adam's Fall, all of us will die. Because of Christ's resurrection, all of us will be resurrected. Resurrection is Christ's free, unconditional, gift to all mankind. Through this gift, none of us will be punished for Adam's sins or anyone's but our own.
Being resurrected is not the same thing as being saved in the Kingdom of Heaven. His greater gift, the gift His Grace purchases for us by forgiving our sins, is conditioned on repentance.
When you die, you turn into a place. You seem out of place for that reason.
Hello? The Catholic Church as been around for 2,000 years.
Why isn't this settled doctrine?
Blanchot, The Space of Literature, has lots of nice literary turns on death.
Translated by Ann Smock, I think.
I should check that but I remember the name and I think that was it.
I think we've got Heaven and Hell covered.
Translators are troubadours.
I wonder what else he's going to reinvent about the faith? I suspect it will end up being unrecognizable and the followers will leave, faster than they already are leaving.
Do blind people go towards the sound.
Am I at all like my earthly self . . . ?
Will there be blogging in heaven?
I see that the Pope may have been misquoted. Since I'm not a Catholic, I don't have a dog in the hunt, but I'm still relieved to hear it. The Catholic church has had a stabilizing influence on our culture. As a conservative, I appreciate and admire that, even though I do not fully accept the Church's doctrines.
Who knew?
What a relief!
Curious: Did he say it, or didn't he? Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me but neither would I jump on what might turn out to be fake news.
I've often wondered if this pope has ever read the Bible.
... this news means only that women must find a new point of reference other than saying, “it will be a cold day in hell before I sleep with you” ... maybe Pussy Galore had the efficient riff back to 007, “you can turn off the charm, I’m immune,” but that wouldn’t be motherly ...
Thank God...
I believe in the Holy Trinity, although I am not a fan of Catholic doctrine and practices. I was raised Lutheran (ELCA) and have a healthy skepticism about human theology.
Where will I go when I die?
You will have to wait for that answer. I don't know.
BTW, what is the Catholic position on those who never had a chance to hear the Gospel?
There must be billions of them in Asia and Africa. Or believe in another religion? What happens to them?
You've left out the billions who lived and died before Christ was born. Would a just and loving God consign them all to perdition simply because they never had a chance to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior?
I'm not aware of any Christian denomination, save one, that has an answer to that question. Well, they might have an answer (they're all damned), but most people find it unpalatable. The problem is that the one denomination that does have an answer to this 'issue', the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints (a/k/a the Mormons), is not considered to be Christian by most of the major Christian denominations.
So Hitler is just nothing. Except in Hollywood, where he enjoys eternal life as a recurring plot element.
BTW, what is the Catholic position on those who never had a chance to hear the Gospel?
There must be billions of them in Asia and Africa. Or believe in another religion? What happens to them?
Catholic doctrine recognizes that people who haven't heard of Christ or can't understand Christianity through no fault of their own, can also be saved:
"Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life." Lumen Gentium (16).
There are a lot of people who are very confused about what the bible has to say on this subject, including the Catholic church, which has come up with some pretty far-out doctrine over the years to try and square the circle around some very bad transliteration of the original languages (transubstantiation anyone?)
Suffice to say, there is no eternal place of torment, so in that sense, yes there is no Hell. Instead, there is a "waiting area" for those who have died, and a separation between those who are saved and those who are not (the gulf). This area exists until the 2nd coming and the great white throne judgement. Whether we are conscious during this waiting period or not depends on whether you view Jesus's parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man as allegorical or literal. If literal, then Jesus is saying that, yes, those who have died are in fact conscious while you await judgement. Otherwise, we have the words of Paul and various other writers in the new testament who refer to "those asleep in Christ", which seems to indicate that though dead, they are in an un-conscious waiting state...
There are also various other passages that can be interpreted to mean that the moment we die, we go before the presence of God... though based on our lack of understanding of time compared to how God views time, this could just mean that when we die, we leave the 4th dimension space/time construct and step out of time to the great throne judgement immediately...
Regardless of how you interpret this, the concept of Hell itself is often conflated and confused with the 2nd Lake of Fire, where Satan and Death and all of his followers are cast. The confusion stems from a mis-translation of Revelations, which in the English, seems to say that those cast into the Lake of Fire will burn for eternity (i.e. eternal Damnation and suffering).
This is not inline with God's character or his stated purpose. God's will is that all should come to repentance, and even those who have sinned greatly are capable of forgiveness through Christ, if they repent and ask for it. However, for those that do not repent, God cannot allow them to remain within creation, because in order for God to do away with death and suffering and evil, they cannot remain. So in essence, the correct translation for the Lake of Fire is that those cast into it will be burned unto ashes forever, meaning it is the 2nd final death, from which there is no return... i.e those people / angels are UNMADE, and it shall be as if they never existed...
So, still not a pretty concept to contemplate, being UNMADE by the creator of the universe, but quite a bit different than saying God will torture you for eternity... That is false doctrine and a concept created by the Catholic Church to instill fear into its followers to better wield power...
I expect much wailing and gnashing of teeth over this proclamation.
Nothing is really not so bad. The alternative has to be pretty good to be better than nothing. I might be more afraid of all that contemplation than I am of nothing. An hour of contemplation in the presence of God followed by an eternity of contemplation in the absence of God, now that would be way worse than nothing.
The more challenging question is: What are the conditions like for those condemned/rewarded with an eternity of contemplation? It's like the childhood punishment of being sent to your room to think. Is there anything else to do? Am I at all like my earthly self as I endure this future of unending contemplation? I mean, that sounds like it could be the new liberal version of hell. Give that to the bad people. But something better ought to be given to the favored souls, or will you be transformed into celestial beings designed for contemplation, in which case will you be you at all?
When our son was in the 3rd or 4th grade, he was afraid of eternity. He was afraid he'd be bored. Which, frankly, is what being eternally engaged in singing praises to God sounds like it would be -- boring. And, I enjoy singing! Fortunately, my conception of life in heaven is nothing like that. I believe we'll be asked to help God with His work. We'll have productive things to do. We'll be constantly learning, growing, progressing. If He finds His work engaging and rewarding, I'm confident we will, too.
"There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls."
This is not doctrine, it is an opinion.
There is a hell, as it is referred to often enough in scripture, and even in the Catholic Church they read the Bible. And, therefore, it is in the books and always has been.
"Why isn't this settled doctrine?"
You cannot add details when you don't know them.
It is a "Catholic" church because it does indeed leave all kinds of things to speculation. But what he said seems unsound.
The Catholic Church teaches that Christ descended into hell to deliver salvation to those who died before Him:
From the Catechism:
632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” — Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.”482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483 (1033)
634 “The gospel was preached even to the dead.”484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption. (605)
635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.”485 Jesus, “the Author of life,” by dying destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.”486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades,” so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.”
It has been a long time since I studied -- or cared about -- Catholic theology but I thought Catholic doctrine was the Hell was not some affirmative torture (like Hell fire) but an immense feeling of loss in the absence of God's love and grace. And that all those souls who lived before Christ or to whom salvation is otherwise not available live in Limbo -- not damnation -- somewhat like Virgil in the Divine Comedy.
When Cthulhu calls, he calls collect.
Blogger buwaya said...
"There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls."
This is not doctrine, it is an opinion.
There is a hell, as it is referred to often enough in scripture, and even in the Catholic Church they read the Bible. And, therefore, it is in the books and always has been.
"Why isn't this settled doctrine?"
You cannot add details when you don't know them.
It is a "Catholic" church because it does indeed leave all kinds of things to speculation. But what he said seems unsound.
-----------
I'm not a huge fan of this pope, but for once, he is correct...
Just because the bible uses the word HELL does not mean a place of eternal damnation and suffering. In fact, if I recall correctly, most uses of Hell are from the Greek HADES and refer to the place where the dead go... You also have references in the old testament to places like Ghenna, which I believe was named after the place where the Isrealites dumped all their shit and refuse and dead bodies outside the walls of Jerusalem... Not a pretty place...
But the Dante's Inferno style depiction of Hell as an eternal place of torment is not Biblical. Instead, what we do know from scripture is the Lake of Fire, also called the 2nd / final death, where Satan and his angels and his followers will be cast. This is often what people think of when they hear the word HELL.
However, this "2nd / final death" is not a place of eternal "torment", but a place of un-making... a place whereby your soul, your essence is removed from creation (probably via Holy Fire) and it will be as if you never existed in the first place. That is why it is called the 2nd / final death, because it is for eternity and there is no coming back from it.
The original Christians believed that a cosmic war was imminent. Paul wrote in Ephesians 6:12 --
-----
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
-----
A few human beings would be selected to participate in this cosmic war, which would be mainly between cosmic powers. The selected few human beings would help fight against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
Except for those few, selected human beings, the entire human species would perish early in the cosmic war. Furthermore, a large portion of the selected few human beings would perish during the cosmic war.
Only a small portion of the selected few human beings who participated in the cosmic war would survive beyond the cosmic war. Those few survivors would live eternally in bliss among the angels and other supernatural beings, praising the victorious God forever.
The survival of particular human beings was practically insignificant. The main, important consideration was that God and his allies would defeat the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
Human beings were as insignificant to the cosmic powers and principalities as ants are insignificant to human beings.
As the decades and centuries passed from the founding of Christianity, however, the predicted cosmic war never happened. Gradually Christianity shifted its focus from the predicted cosmic war to a different imagination of the universe and its drama. This different imagination included the concept of Hell.
How did this guy get to be Pope? Very Trumpian events, I suspect.
If everything that is good that you experience comes from God, and everything bad you experience is a consequence of your sinful nature (and the sinful nature of others), what do you experience when you are cut off from God but still bound to your sinful nature?
Sydney said...
The Catholic Church teaches that Christ descended into hell to deliver salvation to those who died before Him:
----
Right, but that "HELL" is not the Lake of Fire or eternal torment... It is instead, like I said previously, the "waiting area" where those who are dead await the great white throne judgement. For those who died outside of Christ (meaning EVERYONE prior to his resurrection), this was a chance for those souls to accept Christ (because they previously had not had that chance), or to deny him... From that point forward, those "saved" souls continue to wait, but they are now separated from those who are condemned, and they remain in this state until the final judgement and the 2nd death in the lake of fire.
Also it is possible that this "waiting area" for the condemned is also the "outer darkness" where there is much "wailing and gnashing of teeth"... because the damned know they are damned and know what judgement awaits them... But it is not HELL in the sense of eternal torment, but instead of place of waiting for judgement.
One of the early Church fathers--Tertullian?--taught that one of the great joys in heaven was watching the torments of the damned. We've all mellowed quite a bit over the years. I don't think I'd want to spend all eternity watching people being tortured, but that was a big selling point with Christians in the early days.......I wonder about other people's heavens. The Muslim heaven has the most sex appeal. I like the idea of seventy two virgins. I think a better idea would be a mix of fashion models, Playmates, pornstars, and cute celebrity chefs, but surely these things can be negotiated. Anyway, the Muslims definitely have a heaven worth going to. But what's the deal with the seventy two virgins. Not every virgin would want to spend all eternity with Mohammed Atta or even Keith Ellison. Maybe God uses anatromic dolls or something.......If I were God, I'd offer a Buddhist or Hindu arrangement. Life is extremely complicated and you need more than one try to get it right. I think if I were given another five or six tries, I could really make something of myself........My best guess is that nothingness awaits. I was pretty much okay with nothingness for the first thirteen billion years of the cosmos' existence. I think I'll be able to handle nothingness for the rest of its existence. Conscious, rational life is such an improbably rare--maybe even unique--event that there's plenty to thank God for even if you only get one brief moment in time.
Good to know. This means that Global Warming is fake too. Maybe the Jesuits are playing us. A fake World Global combination religion can change its doctrine depending on whom the fires are torturing today.
"Is the Pope Catholic?".......is no longer a rhetorical question.
If everything that is good that you experience comes from God, and everything bad you experience is a consequence of your sinful nature (and the sinful nature of others), what do you experience when you are cut off from God but still bound to your sinful nature?
Thursday.
Well, there was a hell, but they found that it was contributing to Global Warming, so this Pope had no choice...
@robother - LOL
"There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls."
The Pope has obviously never met "other people"
Or maybe the Pope has the soul of Will Rogers.
DKWalser said...
If He finds His work engaging and rewarding...
Perhaps he is, but the evidence is lacking. He's contemplating dark matter, I think.
As for me, I like to watch grass grow.
I think a LOT about Hell and Heaven and salvation. Would love to have a long discussion but this isn't the forum. As I read the Catechism and Catholic church teaching, their doctrine on Hell is much more flexible than that of most evangelical type Protestant churches. Not that there is not a Hell, but it's not a bright line as far as missing out on your chance for salvation.
As for me, I lean towards a universalist doctrine. Jesus died so that ALL men would be saved. My hope is that means all will be saved in some way, some how, through Christ's sacrifice and God's mercy. A lot of purgatorial time and teaching is probably involved.
"The devil's greatest trick is convincing the world he doesn't exist."
A true Native Georgian would ask, “If there’s no Hell, then where is Sherman?”
I believe in the Christian afterlife, but I believe that what you will experience will be utterly unexpected and yet completely rational and obvious.
In Dante's version of Hell, the damned souls were unhappy and often angry, but none argued that their fate was unjust. None regretted the actions that caused them to be damned.
Dante depicted Hell as half in ruins from the earthquake that occurred when Christ entered Hell. The anniversary of that occurrence is this weekend :)
"How did this guy get to be Pope? Very Trumpian events, I suspect."
Quite a bit of Catholic "deep state" went on.
This is not unusual, it is typical, but the nature of the contending factions changes.
From other things that have gone on around it I suspect it has a great deal to do with money, especially the disproportionate influence of the German Church, which because of state withholding plus accumulated property is very wealthy.
Ann Althouse wrote:
> The weekend is coming up, and you may have some free time. What will you do with it?
I will be hosting two Passover seders and attending services in the "free" time between cooking, serving, and cleaning up. I take my religion seriously.
Apparently, the Pope does not.
It seems like the best of both worlds. Those who wish to contemplate God for eternity get to do so. Those for whom that itself would be a form of hell get not to. Everybody's happy.
That "clarifying" statement from the Vatican (added to that article) sounds almost like a non-denial denial.
Now he tells us.
Can't he say whatever he wants and it becomes Church doctrine?
No, and no. The pope must speak ex cathedra and he did not do so. He was expressing a personal opinion.
Papal infallibility is rarely invoked. As follows:
"Papal infallibility is widely misunderstood by Catholics and non-Catholics alike. Infallibility has been invoked by popes only twice: by Pius IX, in defining the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin in 1854 (16 years before papal infallibility itself was actually defined at Vatican I), and by Pius XII, in defining the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin in 1950. That’s it: Leo XIII, in Rerum novarum, and Pius XI, in Quadragesimo anno, did not invoke it."
Hell is a choice and you are free to make it when you come face to face with God.
All souls since the beginning of time can be saved but, like the psychiatric patient, each soul must desire to be saved.
Non-Christians may be saved. There are three kinds of baptism (routes to salvation): water, blood, and desire. Look up "Baptism of Desire" for more info.
All this shall be made clear to us at the end of time when "every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth ... And God shall wipe away all tears from our eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
We cannot comprehend heaven for the same reason that Moses was not allowed to look squarely upon God; instead, he was placed in the cleft of a rock wall and allowed to look upon the "trail of His Glory."
But it will be a very good thing indeed. Not least because there will be dogs. All of our dogs that got there before us. Because it wouldn't be heaven without dogs.
I am a loyal albeit lazy Catholic.
DKWalser wrote...
The problem is that the one denomination that does have an answer to this 'issue', the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints (a/k/a the Mormons), is not considered to be Christian by most of the major Christian denominations.
The Mormon answers, attractive as they seem, create their own theological knots. If you can be converted after one's death -- when one has more evidence so to speak -- there's no reason to be converted in life. The Sunday School answer to that question is to either say a) it is much harder after you die because you've already missed all the best chances you had when you were alive or b) it's too late for you, you're already here in Sunday School, hearing this. The first answer obviously undercuts the very idea of post-death conversion. If it's harder it's unjust. The second triggers all sorts of additional questions with no answers: Can you be converted, fall away and be converted again? Can you be saved by grace on your deathbed or do you have to die first and walk the walk later? Why?
Mormon theology insists that all infants that die are automatically saved. (One suspects that Joseph Smith was feeling especially anti-papal that morning.) This raises the conundrum that the best possible thing to happen to you in this world is to quickly succumb to disease or accident in your first year. Whatever you do, don't make it to age eight when you have to take responsibility for your sins.
I find the literalism of Mormon theology interesting in that it represents a sincere effort to define mechanical, logical answers to all the problems that bedeviled Christianity for its previous 18 centuries. It's a very nuts and bolts religion. Alas, metaphysics is not so easily boxed.
Shorter title: Hell No.
@Roughcoat,
But it will be a very good thing indeed. Not least because there will be dogs. All of our dogs that got there before us. Because it wouldn't be heaven without dogs.
I am a loyal albeit lazy Catholic.
I'd say you're a dog-matic Catholic.
A few times recently Pope Francis has given sermons talking about the devil as being real, so I doubt he doesn't believe in the existence of hell. The big mystery is why he continues to grant interviews to this 93-year-old atheist journalist. It's his fifth one with him and every single time it has created huge problems for the Church.
And that put an end to Papal infallibility.
Curiously, the concept of baptism and salvation was simply yet elegantly articulated in the war movie "Fury" by the character nicknamed "Bible," played by Shia LaBeouf.
Well hell's bells!
And by hell's bells I mean bells.
@Ann Althouse:
but my problem is the Pope's Heaven seems wanting
All Heavens are wanting. You'll find Renaissance paintings depicting the agonies of Hell in terrifying detail, but I'm unaware of any that show Heaven as other than a quasi-kitschy garden with singing angels. We cannot imagine paradise as anything other than a relief from trials and misfortunes. It's like all those people who dream of retiring to an endless sailing around the Caribbean. Within a few months they are bored out of their minds and come home.
Young Hegelian: Good one, mate!
And that put an end to Papal infallibility.
You don't know what you're talking about. See my post at 3:48.
The problem with Pope Francis is not that he said this, which he probably didn't. Well, not quite exactly what's being attributed.
The problem is that everyone, friend & foe alike, believes that Francis is the kind of guy who would say something like this.
The more challenging question is: What are the conditions like for those condemned/rewarded with an eternity of contemplation?
Lutheran doctrine is that you don't go to heaven. You die, and then you are resurrected along with all the other people who have been saved. And you are resurrected in a physical body, called a glorified body. That was one of the reasons that Jesus stressed to the disciples that he was physical, not a spirit, after the resurrection. And you are resurrected in a physical universe, but one that adheres to God's plan prior to the fall.
Not necessarily Lutheran Doctrine follows.
You will have work, but work that you will enjoy. Man is made in God's image and the first thing the Bible says about God is that he created the universe and then rested from his work. And Adam and Eve were tasked with caring for the Garden of Eden. And Adam was tasked with naming all the animals, which sounds like work. Also, I would like to point out that Adam and Eve were commanded to "be fruitful and multiply" before the fall. so sex would seem to be part of God's plan for humanity.
Professor, it sounds like you have read a lot of Mark Twain concerning the tedium of heaven. If not, I think you might like it.
As for Mormons not being Christians: not so.
If you're baptized in the name of the Trinity, you're a Christian. Period. End of story. Everything else is, as they say, just paperwork.
And the Mormons DO practice baptism. Hoo-boy, do they ever! They even baptize the dead. Good on them, I say.
You know, when I think about it, it's amazing how many of us mackerel-snappers there are in the AA forum.
You know, when I think about it, it's amazing how many of us mackerel-snappers
Ex-mackerel-snapper here.
The opposite of love isn't hate, it is indifference.
The opposite of being in heaven, in "contemplation of God," isn't pain, it is nothing.
An interesting take on the issue of eternal souls and their state after our deaths.
Hey. what about Altered Carbon, your Holiness?
You know, when I think about it, it's amazing how many of us mackerel-snappers
One of the major denominations in the USA is Lapsed Catholics.
YoungHegelian:
Like the Illuminati, we're everywhere, manipulating the levels of power and human destinay. The Eagles would not have won the Super Bowl otherwise.
(didn't know you were one of us. But that's how secret cells are supposed to work ...)
tcrosse:
I'm trying to decide which is gayer, Victor Mature wearing a sailor cap or Victor Mature wearing a Turkish fez.
Love both pics, though.
@tcrosse,
One of the major denominations in the USA is Lapsed Catholics.
True dat. Lapsed Catholic also heavily overlaps with "Cultural Catholic", especially among traditionally Catholic ethnics. There's a lot of "It's the One True Church We Don't Believe In" among lots of ethnicities.
As for Mormons not being Christians: not so.
If you're baptized in the name of the Trinity, you're a Christian. Period. End of story. Everything else is, as they say, just paperwork.
I'm not going to disagree with you. Many others will, for many and varied reasons. However, I hope we can leave that disagreement for another time and another forum.
Lazy Catholics is an even bigger denomination. Mostly men, as it happens.
We become devout again when Mary Kate Danaher is attending mass. We try to play patty-fingers in the holy water with her. Can you blame us?
Anybody who has been baptized in the name of the Trinity is my brother or sister in Christ, and I don't care what denomination they belong to, or whether they're Prots, Mormons, Copts, Orthodox, Nestorians, etc.
We become devout again when Mary Kate Danaher is attending mass. We try to play patty-fingers in the holy water with her.
That's one of my favorite movies. She, and he, are among my favorite movie stars. And, no, I can't blame you.
I think we'll have a pope removed in my lifetime. That's a pretty big departure from doctrine.
Actual spoken creed of the Catholic Faith:
I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
He descended into hell;
on the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from there He will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of Saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Sounds like the ancient Egyptian approach. You were bad? Your should and afterlife are put to an end.
I'm trying to decide which is gayer, Victor Mature wearing a sailor cap or Victor Mature wearing a Turkish fez.
Well, Victor Mature actually served in the Coast Guard during WWII, mainly on the cutter Storis on the Greenland Patrol. Eventually he made Chief Boatswain's Mate before being discharged in 1945. So how gay is that ?
Importantly, what does Joy Behar think of all this?
Etienne: The church survived worse Popes.
Friar Cuck was probably misquoted. Still, where's a Borgia pope when you need one?
Introducing my new rare clumber Baxter
Tits
Very, very rarely does this pope even speak of Jesus Christ who is our mediator between ourselves and God. What does that say? Good to see that lots of commentators have the lowdown on this guy.
I think it was the Venerable Fulton Sheen who, upon being told by a woman that she didn't believe in God and therefore didn't believe in Hell exclaimed "You will when you are there, madam."
He's also famous for saying that very few people believe in the devil these days, which the devil delights in. The devil's been trying to convince people he doesn't exist for a loooong time.
Joking aside, isn't this about the most subversive possible statement to come out of a Pope during Holy Week? It seems to me to drain virtually all meaning out of the Passion of the Christ. Literally saving souls from...nothing?
So how gay is that?
Ask Danny Kaye. Google Victor Mature and "gorgeous hunk of man."
He wasn't gay but Danny Kaye wished he was. Because Danny Kaye ...
But I think he LOOKS gay in the sailor hat. I'm not backing down from that. And you can't make me.
Booga booga.
Hell is that period you are falling off the Oregon cliff until you strike the ground and are killed and washed to sea, by two lesbians who were starving you.
The Vatican is where doctrine is formulated to be believed elsewhere.
But I think he LOOKS gay in the sailor hat. I'm not backing down from that. And you can't make me.
Whatever floats your boat.
A (very) Catholic joke:
A Franciscan wrote the Holy See for permission to smoke a cigarette while saying the Divine Office and was told "Certainly not! It would be disrespectful!".
A Jesuit wrote the Holy See for permission to say the Divine Office while smoking a cigarette & was commended for his zeal.
robother: Joking aside, isn't this about the most subversive possible statement to come out of a Pope during Holy Week?
To be fair, it may have slipped his mind that it's Holy Week.
Why would anyone who cannot understand {fill in the blank, either 'quantum mechanics,' 'calculus,' 'global warming,' or 'law' works for most people} think they can speak understand and speak intelligently about either heaven or hell?
I don't like this pope at all, at all. The true story of his ascension to the throne of St. Peter has not been told. It was a putsch that put him there. Benedict XVI was forced out by people whom I regard as enemies of the Church, and of Christianity, and of Western Civilization. Francis is a Marxist and he's dumb. Ratzinger was brilliant, a theologican of the highest order, with an incredible intellect. I am Catholic and I'll put up with Francis because I have to. He won't be there forever.
Jesus Himself talked about the FIRES OF GEHENNA.
Matthew 5:22
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matthew 5:29-30
"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Mark 9:43
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,"
James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Catechism of the Catholic Church 1034: Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”
I mean there are dozens of them in the bible.
So WTF was the Pope saying????
Wow. I can't wait to see my local library here in Wisconsin finally shelve books like the bible, koran, book of mormon, torah, and hindu, greek and roman mythology in the fiction section of the library and only atheism in the non-fiction section.
I'm a little late here, but seeing this now, I had hoped that in the 50 comments before, that this would have been knocked down conclusively a lot earlier. It has been alluded to a little upstream, but I am both disappointed and disgusted that so many here have jumped on the idiocy wagon in thinking that the Pope may actually have said this.
Newsflash -- The person who claims that Francis said this is (1) an atheist and (2) a Communist. Moreover, he does NOT take notes in his discussions nor does he record them. Finally, this atheist Communist who does not keep notes or write anything down has a notoriously long record of reporting that Francis said things he did not say and never would say.
And yet so many of you would believe it. You're worse than the anti-Trumpers.
Mark @4:52:
I know he didn't say it. I'm just having fun with the craic, blabbing about religion.
"The person who claims that Francis said this is (1) an atheist and (2) a Communist."
An atheist and Communist who is a long-time confidant of the Poe. The statement from the Vatican does not deny flat out that the Pope said anything like it. It merely gives a classic non-denial denial, that it is not an exact transcription of his words. Remember, we're talking Jesuit here.
Whatever Pope Francis said or didn't say, this comment thread has more thoughtful discussion of the nature of Heaven and Hell than anything I've heard Francis say since his election.
I want to second what Ron Winkelheimer said at 3:57 pm, and add my own (non-Lutheran) thoughts. We tend to ignore resurrection, rebirth into a new life, and focus too much on final judgment that will commit us to Heaven or Hell for Eternity. In Luke's Gospel, while Jesus is dying on the cross, one of the criminals who was crucified next to him, says "Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom." And Jesus replies, "Truly I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise." Our first Biblical introduction to paradise is in Genesis 2, when God sets Man and Woman to work tending His garden in Eden. I imagine the "good thief" working beside Jesus tending God's garden.
In Revelation, St. John tells us that he "saw a new heaven and a new earth" and that God would make His home "among mortals" and "dwell with them" and "wipe every tear from their eyes" and "Death will be no more".
I know good Christians who imagine that we (or the good members of "we") will spend Eternity adoring God on His Throne while we sing our Hymns of Hossanahs, and maybe they're right. But I imagine that God will put us to work in the garden of His new earth -- and we won't need to worry about being bored!
In a statement released on Mar. 29, after Scalfari's report garnered worldwide attention, the Vatican said:
"The Holy Father Francis recently received the founder of the newspaper La Repubblica in a private meeting on the occasion of Easter, without however giving him any interviews. What is reported by the author in today’s article [in La Repubblica] is the result of his reconstruction, in which the textual words pronounced by the Pope are not quoted. No quotation of the aforementioned article must therefore be considered as a faithful transcription of the words of the Holy Father."
But I'll say, if the Pope is to STUPID to keep talking to this magazine (FOUR TIMES!!!) then he maybe should be retired from his posiition (if the Vatican can.)
Whatever Pope Francis said or didn't say, this comment thread has more thoughtful discussion
You cannot have a thoughtful discussion based on lies and falsehoods -- or based on a complete disregard for whether something is true or not -- especially with respect to heaven and hell. In fact, given that sin and evil and hell are by their nature a distortion and privation of truth, what this comment thread really is is a flavor of hell itself.
I honestly don't know if there is a Hell, but I hope there is a Heaven, which if it exists, implies there'd be a Hell (the place where non-Invitees to Heaven go), and I further wish this Leftwing Pope would stop pontificating on these matters.
robother: Remember, we're talking Jesuit here.
The modern SJ: taking the Jesuit out of jesuitical since 1960-something.
There's not only a hell, there's a special hell.
The 'no hell' theory was very popular in the 19th century. Along with seances and other idiocies.
Here's four views on hell.
So WTF was the Pope saying????
That's not relevant. What is relevant, is what did the communist say he said.
Mark: You cannot have a thoughtful discussion based on lies and falsehoods -- or based on a complete disregard for whether something is true or not -- ...
Mark, there are few extended discussions on any topic here where you won't find some commenters merrily fulminating away on a point that was demonstrated to be misunderstood or false 10 times over and 200 posts upstream. Interspersed within comments of people who obviously couldn't be arsed to read the thread before posting, or people who just want to to let their rage flag fly, you will find more interesting stuff.
That common posting behavior isn't going to change, even for heaven and hell.
There's also the view that hell and heaven are the same place, with our experience of that place determined by our relationship to God. Meaning people can experience the exact same thing, but for some it will be hell and other heaven. An analogy would be going to a very nice dinner party with your significant other. One way to go is as a perfectly happy couple, that's heaven. The other way, is to go just after they told you they were having an affair. You feel betrayed, overwhelmed, isolated.
Or something like that.
Some theologians say that there is a hell, but it's empty, because Christ went to hell and tore down the gates.
I personally like CS Lewis's view in The Great Divorce. Some people are in hell, are miserable, but think their misery is somehow self-satisfying. Their trapped in their own egotistic obsessions. It's a very, very, very small place but seems big to the inhabitants who are all very far from each other. Heaven is bigger, more real place. But it takes letting go one's own self-demands and obsessions in responding to God's invitation.
The weekend is coming up, and you may have some free time. What will you do with it? Show of hands: Who's thinking, contemplation?
No, I will be reading "Who we are and How we got here."
I understand the first part is the best and I am getting started today.
I think this same Pope also said that though there is no sex in heaven, there is sexuality.
CS Lewis, influenced by Plato, wrote that the world and universe we all live in is but a poor and imperfect copy of the real universe where absolute perfection and beauty reign.
The Fury of a Woman Scorned hath no Hell.
Mark -
When you wrote the person who claims this is "(1) an atheist and (2) a Communist" at first I thought you were talking about Francis, because the shoe fits.
"Newsflash -- The person who claims that Francis said this is (1) an atheist and (2) a Communist."
Why the Hell is a Pope talking to a person that's "Communist and Atheist"?
I'm not Catholic - so i'm just asking.
They need to impeach this Pope. He's like making it up. It would ironic if God smote him or struck him by lightening.
And, let's not forget who's all over Franky like stink on shit, like white on rice, like a chicken on a June bug: Ross Douthat.
Here's a review.
Suffice to say, Douthat is not a fan.
And, mirabile dictu, it's available through our hostesses Amazon portal!
rcocean,
Why the Hell is a Pope talking to a person that's "Communist and Atheist"?
I'm not Catholic - so i'm just asking.
Because he's surrounded by Italians, who are often one or both.
Huge collective sighs of relief were heard from Hollywood, DNC headquarters and the Clinton “family” home.
God damn it!!!
This Pope might be a Communist. You never know.
Hell is for children. No offense.
The Hell there isn't!
"Introducing my new rare clumber Baxter"
Pics or it didn't happen.
Hell is a place where up is down, light is dark, life is death, rights are rites, practiced at the twilight fringe. Repent and sin no more, and there is no hell.
"Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company." Another great aphorism goes up in smoke. Thanks for nothing, Frank.
The Catholic Church had a good run, but they finally blew it.
Blood, Sweat, and Tears ...
“My troubles are many, they're as deep as a well
I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell
Swear there ain't no heaven and pray there ain't no hell,
But I'll never know by living, only my dying will tell,”
@Mark: In response to my comment above (5:09 pm), you wrote (5:16 pm) "You cannot have a thoughtful discussion based on lies and falsehoods". My comment was based on the words of the Bible. Do you regard those words as lies and falsehoods?
above us only sky...
Mark: "what this comment thread really is is a flavor of hell itself...."
Given what seems pretty clearly to be this Pope's views on hell, that may be less of a problem than you seem to think it is.
Pics or it didn't happen.
You can tell "Baxter" from pictures?
The Catholic Church had a good run, but they finally blew it.
This was a Church principal, not principle. The faith and religion prevail.
Catholic here. Setting aside whether the Pope is rewriting the faith (or perhaps "clarifying" existing standards as the Court might say) or if this kind of interview would be an avenue by which he could (pretty sure it's not) --
What he has said strikes true to me as what I've always believed. I say that without being able to point to a particular source but as someone with 12+ years of formal Catholic education and more than twice that growing up in the Church, not particularly religious but religious and faithful. Stepping back from the trees, the gist was always that salvation, grace, and eternal life is found in God's love.
And if so, what is hell? The nothingness of disappearance as the Pope puts it. The boredom of eternity that Ann fears is suggested as the reward. The void. So cold, empty, and eternal that it is hotter, more tormenting, and more filled with brimstone than any hell that can be imagined by man. Hell is the absence of God's love. That has always been the message.
If you are Democrat, when you die, you to the United States where Trump is the President.
If you are a Republican, when you die, you go the United States where Trump is the President.
There is no butter in Hell.
Jesus talked more about hell than about heaven.
The Vatican [notably, not the Pope, himself] has denied the statement. I suspect the Pope did say it because he is woefully ignorant of the theology of Christ. Not being a Catholic, I don't understand how [or why!] popes are elected but many popes throughout history have similarly trampled on the Word of God.
USA Today says, "The Pope didn't say that." So, it's at least #FakeHeadlines if not #FakeNews.
I here apologize for calling the Pope "an embarrassment." I can recall times when someone "paraphrased" my words entirely incorrectly, so who knows what he really said. The journalist who broke the story is very elderly, so his hearing and comprehension may be faulty.
Well, of course there is no Hell! (If by that we mean an afterlife Hell, a Hell in a spiritual realm).
Is this really an issue in dispute?
Is this really an issue in dispute?
You think it's not?
Why? Because you haven't found it with the Hubble telescope? Or ground penetrating radar?
Is this really an issue in dispute?
Bob, you're soaking in it.
This has long been the understanding of Adventist churches; a standard reference is Fudge:
The Fire that Consumes
This pope specializes in saying ridiculous things and then denying that he said them.
His actions are clear. His actions in things such as China. His actions in abandoning Christians being murdered in the Middle East by Muslim thugs. His actions in undermining the basic tenets of the Church.
He is the Devil's henchman. It is no wonder he does not fear Hell and would minimize it's danger.
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